the meaningful life — Michele Weiner-Davis When is it Time to Stop Working on Your Marri

Transcript کامل قسمت

We are creatures of desire.

What we most desire is meaning.

What makes us suffer most is a lack of meaning.

The Meaningful Life with Andrew G. Marshall.

Marital therapist, author, and communications trainer Andrew G. Marshall invites guests from all walks of life to discuss what makes life meaningful.

Hello, I'm Andrew G. Marshall.

Welcome to The Meaningful Life.

We're available on Apple, Spotify, Podbean, and wherever you find your podcasts.

How do you know when it's time to stop working on your marriage?

It's a question that I get lots as a couples therapist, and I have my own answer, which I'll share later in the podcast.

But I thought, what is better than a second opinion?

And from someone I've been trying to get on this show since I started it over 200 episodes ago.

Michelle Werner-Davis is a licensed clinical social worker and a marriage and family therapist with 40 years helping couples.

She's the author of several classic books, including The Sex-Starved Marriage, A Couple's Guide to Boosting Their Marriage Libido, and Divorce Busting, A Step-by-Step Guide to Making Your Marriage Loving Again.

Now, Michel, welcome to the programme.

The topic of divorce is personal for you because your parents split up when you were in your senior year at high school.

So tell me about that and what was the impact?

Well, I think to tell you about that and the impact, I have to back up just a teeny bit.

I'm first generation American.

And so my parents were immigrants and all of their immigrant relations came over at the same time.

And we were an incredibly close-knit family.

We spent weekends and holidays and

meals during the week together.

And I actually feel like I had the most amazing childhood experience and then never saw my parents fight.

They never fought.

And I felt very blessed.

And then one day I was 16, just about to leave for college.

And my mom called my two brothers and me and my dad in for a family meeting, which was not the norm in my family.

And

So I suspected something was up.

And she proceeded to tell us that she had been unhappy for 23 years of her marriage and went to a marriage therapist, or actually, I don't even know if it was a marriage therapist, but a therapist at the time.

And the therapist helped her to conclude that there were irreconcilable differences and that

She needed to leave the marriage in order to find herself.

I always jokingly say I'd like to find that therapist now.

Probably have to dig him up.

Yes, right.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right about that.

I should let go of that, I guess.

And she said there comes a time in everyone's life where you just have to throw in the towel.

And that was the end of my parents' marriage.

I was being launched into marriage.

world from this cozy little nest into college.

And at the time, being 16, I recognized that my parents were

marriage was going to end, which was beyond devastating to me.

But what I didn't realize, because I didn't have the sophistication yet to know, the incredible ways that it not only ended my parents' marriage, but it ended my extended family life and my security in my family completely.

And I also recognized as years went by, divorce isn't something that just happens and it's over.

it's something that happens over and over and over again.

And by that, I don't mean necessarily that in the generations to come, they make similar decisions.

But what I do mean are there are many, many reasons for families to have celebrations, for example, the birth of a child or a wedding or whatever it might be.

And all of those were constant reminders of

They were just bittersweet because my family was broken.

And it had an incredible impact on me.

I always knew that I wanted to be a therapist.

That probably happened long before my parents' divorce.

But the passion that I felt about learning ways not only to make my own relationships, my own marriage work, so that my kids didn't have to go through that same kind of experience, but

but if at all possible, to really spend the rest of my life helping couples avoid what I refer to as unnecessary divorce.

So let's have a sort of a thought experiment.

Let's imagine you could take the knowledge you have today and travel back and be that therapist that your mother went and would get your father along as well.

What do you think was their real problem and how would you have helped them?

Look, I've given that so much thought.

As a matter of fact, my mother was also a therapist, not while I was growing up, but as a result, I think of the divorce process.

She got her own profession.

And actually, that was part of the problem.

You know, my parents got divorced in the 70s.

And if you remember, at least in the United States, I suspect maybe worldwide, there was a cultural revolution going on in the 70s.

And many, many women were no longer satisfied being stay-at-home moms.

and not having careers.

And my father was very traditional in the sense that his idea of being a good dad was to provide very well for his family.

And he was excellent at that.

And so there was a division of labor.

But my mother felt a yearning for some connection with my dad, which, and they were very, very different in many ways,

and or more satisfaction in her life.

It's not that she didn't love us and she didn't love what she was doing with us as kids, but she wanted something more.

And I think my father, being as traditional as he was, he had a hard time thinking about her breaking out of that role, which isn't to say he forbade her to do it, but I don't think she had the courage to do it.

to really break free from the more traditional female role.

And the therapist she went to, I believe, helped to give her the narrative that in order for her to evolve as an individual, she had to do it outside the marriage.

So back to your question, Andrew, I think one of the things that I've learned in my own life is

is that you know relationships are the one place one half and one half doesn't equal a whole and it really was important to my mom to figure out what she needed to do if she wasn't getting the kind of satisfaction she needed from my father to create a career to do something even in the face of my father maybe not being so happy about it he was not a controlling person he was a pretty easygoing person

She needed to stand her ground because I think if she had and created that life outside the marriage, outside the family that gave her satisfaction, she easily could have stayed with my father.

And interestingly enough, my mom and I, despite her divorce and despite the fact that

that I wish I could go back in time, like your question asked, and have been their therapist.

My mother actually said that to me.

If I had had a therapist like you, maybe it wouldn't have ended that way.

What a beautiful thing to say.

Yeah.

And it's hard.

Yeah.

You've been with your own husband, Jim, since 1974, I believe.

Actually, since 1973.

Yeah.

Has there been any time over those years when, you know, there was a part of you that wanted to walk away?

Oh, gosh.

You know, I think people in long-term marriages, the way that I think about it is marriage, long-term marriage goes through many different stages and people change and they grow or they don't change.

And ultimately, if you want to stay married, you have to

wake up in the morning and decide to stay married.

And you also have to divorce that old marriage and start a new one with the same person.

And, you know, to be perfectly honest, Andrew, we're both very determined, stubborn people.

So life isn't always easy.

But I really believe that my parents' experience and my experience with their divorce is

has made staying married and keeping our family together, we have two adult kids and they have kids.

That's a priority to me, a big priority.

But there is a syndrome that you write about called walk away wife syndrome.

So tell me about that.

Yeah.

So I always kind of jokingly say, I wish I had a dollar for each time a woman in my practice has said to me, or actually it's the man who's saying it to me, that they've been unhappy.

She told him how unhappy she's been in the marriage.

Nothing changed.

And then she tried again a little bit later, sometimes in the same way, sometimes in a slightly different way.

And nothing changed.

And so the woman says to herself, I'm not going to live like this.

But she doesn't leave the marriage right away.

What happens is she develops a plan.

And the plan is different for each woman.

It's typically when the youngest leaves home, like my mother did.

Or it's when I meet a new guy.

Or it's when I get a better job so I can support myself.

And while she's implementing this plan, she no longer complains to her husband about her unhappiness.

And guess what he thinks when she's not complaining?

I mean, you don't have to be a marital therapist to get this one.

He thinks everything's wonderful.

Absolutely.

And so then when D-Day comes, where the target she's been aiming at arrives, and she says to him, I want a divorce,

It is absolutely shocking to him.

And he says, what do you mean you want a divorce?

I knew things weren't perfect, but you never told me that you wanted a divorce.

You never told me that you were unhappy.

And here's what happens at that point.

And this is a stereotype, I think, Andrew, that women tend to be very verbally oriented.

We're really good with words.

And men tend to be a bit more action oriented.

And it's at this point that she has no longer been nagging or complaining or talking, but she's going to see a divorce attorney.

That's an action.

He finally gets it.

He finally understands this isn't working.

And that's the point at which

So many men will do anything to save their marriage and their family because they recognize how important they are.

And so these are the guys who pick up the phone and make a call for therapy.

They read self-help books.

They take courses on how to improve themselves.

But for a lot of these women, and that's why I call them the walkaway wives, all of those changes, they may notice them, but for a

where were you when I needed you?

Or they notice it and they think to themselves, yeah, he's just manipulating me.

He's trying to loop me back into the marriage.

And as soon as I do that, I know what will happen.

Things will go back to square one.

But I can just tell you from my experience that these guys, it really took hitting rock bottom, but they make authentic

fundamental changes to who they are and how they think about things and their recognition about what's really important in life, that sometimes I'm able to help turn things around even at that late stage.

But when I'm not, I always say, these make great second husbands because they've had this wake-up call and they've done the work.

It's unfortunate because these women, these walk-away wives,

They will always tell me I have done everything to save my marriage.

And here's the deal about this.

When I hear that from a woman, what I really know is that she has said everything.

She hasn't done everything.

So if we've got one of these women at the moment who are actually recognising themselves and they haven't quite reached, you know, they're semi-walked away and they're prepared to take some advice from you, what would you say?

What can they do differently?

Well, that's a really good question, but I also want to say the tendency in a lot of women who have gotten to this point of frustration, they would be listening to me right now and saying, Michelle doesn't know me and she doesn't understand that my situation is much, much worse.

So I want to just put that out there.

Yeah.

So now I've sort of looped in maybe more people into that description.

So, for example, let's say a husband, he could be home at 530 every single day from work, but instead often comes home.

He may stop for a beer with one of his buddies or he may linger at work.

And she's told him how important it is to her husband.

for him to come home at an earlier time so they can have dinner as a family, and she knows when he's coming home.

And repeated reminders haven't changed his behavior.

And then she nags, and of course, he doesn't want to come home to that.

Instead of using her words...

what she could do.

I always say to people, what could you do that would be the last thing your husband would expect you to do?

Because he's an automatic pilot right now.

You really have to shake things up and do something different.

And I will hear things like,

I guess if he got home at 6 o'clock or 6.30 and I weren't there, I had a babysitter and I was out, that would shock him because he knows no matter what happens, no matter how unhappy I am, I'm always Johnny on the spot.

I suggest that she does that.

I suggest that she does that randomly.

And she has to, through her actions, say, I am going to make a change.

I am not going to accept this status quo life that we have been living and you're not hearing me.

So that would be just, you know, one example.

Or another example might be, even though he comes home late, she always says dinner prepared and she's waiting.

She may be angry, but she's waiting.

Eat with the kids, have everything cleaned up, have her not be, you know, sitting at the door waiting for him.

She has to make a change in her behavior in order for him to truly recognize that this is no longer acceptable.

And those are simple examples.

Because the problem is we think if we give the message louder, it will get through.

But actually, however many times you repeat it and however loud you do, they're just going to do the same action that they always do, but louder as well.

And you know, Andrew, I always say along those lines that insanity has been defined as doing the same old thing and expecting different results.

But here's the deal.

Over time, if you continue to do the same old thing, things actually do change.

They get worse because the other person reacts negatively to the same old thing.

And then you respond with even more passion in terms of your initial position and

And things get worse and worse and worse.

So my question at the beginning was, how do you know when it's time to stop working on your marriage?

So I'll give my answer, but let's have yours first.

Okay.

You know, and I feel really, really strongly about this.

The longer I've done couples work, the more I recognize, the less I know.

In other words, I don't know when a marriage is over.

Only the people in that marriage know when they have nothing left to give.

And the reason I say that is because I've worked with some people who have had really, really serious problems.

And even to the point where I, the psychotic optimist, have gotten to the place of thinking, you know what, I don't know if this is going to work.

And then in the 11th hour, they pull it together and they make a decision that each one's going to take responsibility for their own behavior and

They're going to make the changes.

And they do.

And then there are other people who have what I consider to be garden variety problems.

And I'm thinking, this is a no-brainer.

I shouldn't even get paid to be doing this.

And they end up divorcing.

So the reason I feel so strongly about this, I know that so many people go to marriage therapists or couples therapists, and the therapist acts as if he or she knows what's going to happen in terms of the future of that relationship.

And they tell people, you're incompatible.

or this isn't going to work, or it's time for you to get out.

And quite honestly, I don't think that's our responsibility.

I really, really don't.

I see my role as helping people look at potential solutions they hadn't considered before.

And if in the end, they feel that, again, they have nothing left to give, that is ultimately their choice, not my decision.

So what I say is when both parties want to get a divorce, if there's one person who believes there's something in the relationship, then I think it's worth talking about it.

And in particular, working on improving the communication between the two of them.

Because if you've got children, which most people who are not quite certain whether their marriage is over or not do have –

you're still going to need to be able to communicate well.

In fact, when you get divorced, you're going to have to communicate even better because there's misunderstandings when you're both standing in the same kitchen.

When you're having the same conversation by text, I promise you, you will need to be able to communicate really well.

In fact, much better than now.

But Andrew, along the lines of what you just said, my experience has been that almost all divorce is unilateral, that there is one person who wants it and another person who really doesn't want it.

So in a way, I love your definition, but

But I think you can reach the point where the other person may not still not want it, but they accept the fact that it's going to happen.

So they say, yeah, because we've talked about it, you've explained it to me in depth.

We've looked at trying to do this and trying to do that.

And I really don't want to stay.

And then they make the decision together that they're going to get divorced rather than it's actually being imposed one on top of the other.

I think that's what I mean by both people wanting to get divorced.

There's always going to be one person who's leading it and the other person's moving on reluctantly behind.

But if somebody feels very passionately that the relationship is still something to work on, then I'm always willing to sit there and do that and actually help the other person reach the point where either they both agree that they're going to continue to work on the relationship or they both agree that there isn't a future for the relationship.

But it's actually –

There's a big difference between being divorced against your will and agreeing to a divorce.

And I think that actually the extra time that takes is well worth investing because we sort of think that if we can get through the pain as quickly as possible, it will be less pain.

But trying to get through it quickly just stores up problems further down the line and you'll pay for the next 10 years at family gatherings.

But, you know, if you do some hard work now and it's a consensual divorce, then I think you're going to, in 10 years' time, five years' time, even next year when you have to get together for a family due, you can actually be together in the same room because, you know, it's your daughter's day without causing a scene.

Right.

Well, I'll tell you, you'll become my new referral source because I know, I know.

And I think part of it is because so many people get to me because of my divorce busting reputation.

And so they see me as a person who

who will stay the course no matter how long it takes, no matter how hard it is.

And so it absolutely, with some people I get to where it does seem like it's not going to be, we're not going to be able to reconcile.

I help them find peace with that.

But more often than not, it doesn't end up that way.

So I will refer them to you at that point.

Yeah.

I'm afraid to say I'm completely and utterly full, so please don't refer them.

Okay, okay.

But I actually, having said that, I have a team of people who work with me, so somebody in my team can help.

So you say that divorce is not the answer.

What do you mean by that?

So much of the time when people come to me and at least one person feels that their marriage has no hope, one of the things that I do with people, you

typically one of the differences in terms of how I work versus other people is I don't do hourly sessions.

Initially, I work with people two days at a time and it affords me the time to do what I call a marital history or relationship history.

And I start from the beginning and I have them share with me the key moments in their relationship.

I mean, everything, it's sort of a very,

We really dissect their relationship from the very beginning, step by step, because I want to learn their narrative.

I want to hear the stories they've been telling themselves about themselves and each other.

And so often what I find, first of all, I find a lot of strength, a lot of positives in their relationship, particularly at the beginning.

And this sort of history reminds them of that.

And then when they hit spots in the chronological timeline where they've hit bumps in the road, so often they've handled it so beautifully as a team.

And it meant so much to them to work through those times of difficulty.

And then when they hit bumps in the road that they didn't handle well,

What I've discovered, the most consistent observation that I've had is that it isn't ill will or it wasn't ill will that prompted that behavior.

It wasn't, you know, not loving each other.

What it truly boils down to so often is what I consider to be a skill deficit.

Yeah.

whether it's a communication skill or oftentimes it is a communication skill.

And there's so many misunderstandings that sometimes has happened decades ago that are like the skeletons in the closet.

And being able to talk about that and shed new light on it, and also at the same time teach them the skills that they would have needed, you know, whatever, 20 years ago, which of course,

serves them even in their current lives, whether they stay together or not.

Again, what I'm saying is the breakdown in the relationship, in my view, is often a skill deficit, which is great news because we do know so many things that can be helpful to couples so that they can continue to feel their connection.

We can teach skills, can't we?

Absolutely.

And there's one other thing that is so important to me.

It's this mythical thinking that stands in the way of staying connected over the years.

You know, sometimes people will come and they'll say, we're so different.

You know, I like this, he likes this, or I believe this way, he believes this way.

You know, when you look at the research about people who have made it over the long haul, like through many years and they're still happily married, the research tells us they're no more similar to one another than people who divorce.

But there is one thing that is different about people who make it over the long haul and they're still happy.

They learn how to deal with their differences.

So this mythical thinking that we have to be clones of each other, it's impractical.

It doesn't work.

And you know what?

You can trade your partner in right today because you feel like you're so different on some dimension and you'll go find somebody who's more similar to you on that dimension.

But guess what you're going to find out?

They're different in other ways.

And if you leave your partner,

relationship without learning the skills to work through differences and you get into another relationship, you'll be faced with the same dilemma again.

And it's job security for you and me when people do that without that awareness.

So how do you deal with differences then?

Well, you know, I can, I have a lot of personal experience to draw on here.

Share some with me.

So, you know, I mentioned that I'm first generation American.

And if you can think about maybe some of the values that might go along with that.

Where does your family come from originally?

My mother was German, my father Austrian.

Ah, wunderbar.

Yes, wunderbar.

Sprichst du Deutsch?

You know, it's so funny.

My parents wanted to assimilate, so they decided not to teach us German.

However, because my relatives were always around, they were speaking German to one another.

And when you grow up around it, you certainly learn.

I can understand quite a bit of it, but I don't really speak.

I did my B1 language examination, which is sort of everyday German.

Oh my gosh, I would have loved to have learned as a child.

Yeah.

I know.

I really regret that they didn't just speak it to us because it would be so natural to be able to speak it.

So back to our differences, my husband likes, were you going to ask something else about that?

Yeah, I was just going to say, so you've got a German background.

What is your husband's background?

So that's what I was going to say.

So my husband likes to joke about how his family came over on the Mayflower.

You know, they've been here for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.

And, you know, I'm Jewish and he was Protestant growing up.

So religious differences.

I hesitate to say this, but we even have political differences at this point in time, which is, you know, of course, given what's going on in our world, that presents its own unique challenges.

There's so many differences.

I'm like very outgoing, people-oriented person, relationship-oriented.

That is what gives me so much joy, connection with other people.

If my husband had his way, he would have a hut in the mountains far away from any other human except for his family.

So in these cases, in this case, in my case,

And I believe what's important for other people, you're going to always have differences.

What I really try to do, and I think I walk the talk after whatever, 52 years of being together, is I focus on what we have in common, not our differences and

Some of our differences I've learned from, I've grown from, I appreciate.

It took a while, but I do appreciate it.

And some of our differences I just leave alone.

I have given him permission to be him.

And he has given me permission to be me without judgment.

And just to give you an example, we're both incredibly in love with our kids and their families.

And we spend a lot of time being with them and talking about them and also being intentional about things.

doing things together that we both enjoy doing.

And if we notice that there is a void in terms of not having something to do that we haven't come, we create it.

We are intentional about doing that.

And I'm not going to say that it's easy.

But again, I think it's a myth to think marriage is.

And if you want somebody to go to the theatre with and your husband doesn't want to go, you'll have plenty of girlfriends?

Absolutely.

I don't know what I do without my girlfriends.

That's exactly right.

Exactly.

So one of the other reasons that marriages hit the rocks is sex and brings us through to the other theme of your books.

What is your definition of a sex-starved marriage?

So it isn't what a lot of people think, which has to do with the number of times people have sex, because that aspect of a relationship, it's not like vitamins, like there are a daily minimum requirement to keep you healthy or even a weekly minimum requirement.

A sex-starved marriage is one where one spouse is

desperately longing for more touch, more physical closeness, more physical affection.

And the other spouse is less interested and thinks, what is the big deal?

This is just sex.

Why don't you just go take a cold shower?

But to the spouse yearning for more physical closeness, it's a huge deal because it really is.

about feeling wanted, about feeling loved, about feeling close and connected.

And when this major disconnect happens between two people in terms of not really getting it, what also tends to happen is that intimacy on many levels goes right out the door.

They stop wanting to spend time together.

They start bickering more.

They stop doing things together.

They stop laughing at each other's jokes.

I guess what I'm saying is they stop being friends.

And I think at that point, it places the marriage at risk of infidelity and certainly of divorce.

And it's something that men can suffer from as well as women.

Absolutely.

I mean, I wrote a book called The Sex-Darved Marriage, and then the sequel to that, because of the feedback that I got from people, I devoted five pages in The Sex-Darved Marriage to the unique trials and tribulations that women go through when they're the more highly sexed spouse.

I received so much positive feedback about having addressed that because at least here, we don't talk about that very much.

We always talk about the horny guy, you know, chasing his wife around the living room.

But the truth is, it's also the other way around sometimes.

And so I also wrote a book called The Sex Starved Wife.

You know, here's the challenging part to all of this.

And this is another piece that I don't think gets talked about a lot, is that in those relationships where there is a sexual desire gap, the person with lower desire tends to control the sexual relationship.

And when I say that, I'm not meaning they're manipulative or they're purposely trying to control things.

But when that person isn't in the mood

sex often doesn't happen.

Not often, never happens.

Well, you know, there's some couples I work with where the lower desire person will say, you know, for many years, I felt like it was my obligation.

So for some people they do, but it's done begrudgingly.

And the interesting thing is the other person always say...

Who wants begrudging sex?

Exactly, exactly.

And they say, what turns me on the most is seeing my spouse turned on.

So, you know, when one person doesn't understand the impact of saying no, you know, I often tell a story to my couples, and this is a true story.

It actually happened in my practice.

I was working with a couple and

They were doing fine.

The guy was a pretty laid back guy.

And this is when I was doing hourly sessions and the sweet little man at the end of the hour, as I'm sure, Andrew, you've experienced people wait till the end of the hour and tell you what's really going on with them when you have no more time to talk.

He said, yeah, there is something I'd like to talk about.

There really is something.

only like a two-hour window of opportunity to have sex on Friday nights between 10 and 12.

And if my wife isn't receptive, I know it's not going to happen, at least until the next Friday night.

And I don't even bother asking her about it.

And that doesn't feel good.

And when he said that, I could see the look on her face.

She smiled because she recognized herself in that Friday night description and

And he wasn't smiling, though.

So I turned to him and I said, I wonder what that's like for you.

And he took a deep breath.

And he turned to her and he said, you know,

When I reach out to you in bed and you're not interested and you're not there for me, I start to wonder, do you love me anymore?

Are you still attracted to me in the way that I'm attracted to you?

And then when you go to sleep and I hear you breathing and I am staring up at the ceiling, all I can tell you is that it is the loneliest feeling in the world lying next to you in bed.

And to this woman's credit,

She started to cry and she grabbed his hand and she said, you know, every time you reach out to me, the only thing I ever think about is, am I in the mood?

Am I not in the mood?

Is now a good time?

I never really think about what it's like to be you.

And I am so, so sorry.

And I promise I will do better.

And he started to cry and I started to cry.

Yeah.

And they had a huge turnaround in their relationship.

And one of the things she recognized when she made a decision to be more tuned into what was important to him and to not reject him without recognizing the hurt that it caused, when she put more effort into being either available or receptive to his advances, she said something that I have heard

I don't know, a million times from especially women in my practice and actually from women friends is that I wasn't in the mood when my husband initiated sex.

But once we got going, it felt really good.

And I had an orgasm and he was happy.

And the next few days were so pleasant together.

So how do you navigate when you sort of, let's say you're the woman and you're saying, okay, I will sort of go along and see if I can get in the mood.

And then you don't get in the mood.

How do you say, look, I don't want to go any further without it actually being a really big issue?

Okay.

Well, the first thing I want to say, what I'm talking about here is the difference between what we now know is spontaneous sexual desire, which means you could be doing just about anything and all of a sudden you get horny and you want to get with your partner.

That's spontaneous desire and responsive sexual desire, which means your spouse needs to start either touching you or doing something that

to turn you on because you're not thinking about sex.

It's not on your brain.

And then all of a sudden your body takes over and your brain goes, yeah, this is fun.

I want to do this.

I think it's something like 86% of women have responsive sexual desire, not spontaneous desire.

And women often mistakenly think that they have to have that random sexual thought in order for that to be desire.

Desire often follows physical arousal.

So I want to say that

Women need to rethink that.

And by the way, some men too, but more women than men need to rethink that.

That said, in answer to your question, there are times where you get going, you're completely okay with being responsive, even from a neutral starting point, but then you start to notice that.

you're thinking about all the things you need to do that day or that you're still a little not in the best spirit.

Maybe you're not feeling close and maybe that's affecting your ability to really get into the moment.

There's nothing wrong with being able to say, I'm not into this right now.

Let's try this again later or let's try this again tomorrow.

But here's the other thing that I don't think enough people talk about.

There is absolutely nothing wrong.

If you are not in the mood,

But your spouse wants to be close physically for you to give him or her the gift of pleasuring your spouse without reciprocity.

So I think you're talking about masturbating them, are you?

Or oral sex or something, you know, or whatever.

You know, I think one of the most surprising things when couples actually talk about sex, which they often don't talk about sex, is that the person who has lower desire really thinks about sex strictly as a biological urge.

It's like scratching an itch.

Of course, my husband needs this because it's that time of week or that time of day.

But, you know, I have learned this from listening to the more highly sexed spouse in my practice.

It is so not about scratching an itch once in a while, maybe, but more often than not, it's about feeling connected emotionally.

It's about I had one guy recently tell me.

that sometimes he doesn't feel so great about life, but when he's close to his wife physically, he feels like everything is right in the world.

That is not about having an orgasm and scratching an itch.

So in a moment, we're going to be looking at a particular problem that's being written in, and I'll be getting Michelle's thoughts on it.

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The Meaningful Life with Andrew G. Marshall.

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In June, I will run my third men's retreat near Berlin.

In a chaotic and challenging world where the rules of masculinity are getting blurrier and the criticism of us more strident, this growing community of like-minded men is an important resource.

This retreat is called Balancing Priorities, being both the barefooted warrior and the embodied lover, and runs from Thursday 11th June to Saturday 13th June 2026.

The weather will be wonderful, and we can take full advantage of the lake and the unspoiled nature around us.

The main themes of the event will be how to have the strength to stand up for yourself and your family, yet at the same time be the empathetic and engaged lover your partner longs for.

How to both protect and nurture.

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You'll find the section on podcasts and go down and you'll find a place to participate in the programme.

I've been thinking of writing to my husband about my loneliness because every time I try and speak I get emotional which pushes him away and he gets defensive which makes me angry and pushes him even further away.

We've raised two daughters and a son together and the youngest daughter is about to go to university and I can already hear the silence in the house.

My husband is a very private man.

I like to think that still waters run deep, but sometimes I wonder if I'm fooling myself.

While I want a new adventure and challenges and connection, I think he gets more than enough of that at work.

His work gets the best of him and all I get is the empty husk at the end of the day and often a grumpy one.

He says he works for the family and I accept that, but I need love and companionship rather than the leftovers.

As you can tell, I'm beginning to get resentful.

Would a letter be a good idea?

If so, what should I put in it?

What other ways would you suggest getting through to someone whose stonewalls more than connects?

I think you might probably recognize this person, might be one of your clients, in fact.

For sure, for sure.

Well, first of all, what I want to say, and you don't have to be a therapist to say this, you don't need a degree in psychology.

I can so hear her loneliness.

I mean, she is really lonely.

She is really wanting to connect.

And I'm so glad to hear her say that she wants to find new ways to do it because she recognizes that the old ways haven't been working.

Also, I think she's accurate in, you know, look, when your youngest leaves home and goes off to school or whatever.

she's anticipating silence.

And I think that's accurate.

And I'm glad she's planning on doing something really effective that might work to bring more closeness between the two of them at this transitional time in their lives.

The idea of writing a letter, I think can be a really, really good one.

I've worked with a lot of couples where

having face-to-face conversations about things.

People are reading their nonverbal behavior and

And sometimes they get reactive or defensive.

And she's saying when she gets emotional, he gets defensive, which makes her angry, which pulls him even further away.

So his being able to read without having to respond immediately to her, I think has some potential.

And I'm glad she's also asking about what she should write in the letter.

Because so often when people are unhappy, they've been sitting on that mountain of unhappiness for a long time.

And when they finally approach their spouses wanting to make a change and also with good intention, but what typically happens is they express their feelings in such a way that it sounds like a complaint and typically is a complaint.

Yeah.

And probably 12 pages of complaint as well.

Exactly, exactly.

And by the way, who wouldn't get defensive if you hear that?

So I make a big distinction between making a complaint, which is based on things that have happened in the past that you can't change, versus making a request for change, which is focused on the future, which are things that you can change and

So to give you an example, let's just say we have a wife who's got little kids and she's feeling overwhelmed.

She wants her husband to be more involved.

She misses him, but she also wants more help.

She could say to him, you know, I am so overwhelmed.

I feel like I'm a single parent.

I feel like home is just a place for you to hang your hat.

And I am so tired of it.

That's a complaint or many.

Yeah, I've already switched off.

Yeah, exactly.

Versus same woman, same situation, but she gets coached to say, you know what, I've been thinking about it.

And I really recognize that things seem to go so much better around here when you're more involved.

The kids love having you play with them in the evening.

It would be wonderful for me if once in a while, maybe just once a week, you could make a meal or when I'm making a meal, you

Stay on top of what's happening with the kids.

And it would also mean a lot to me if once a week we could have like a date night and you took responsibility for getting the babysitter.

It would really mean the world to me.

So asking for what you want, as opposed to complaining about what's not happening, is much more likely to lead to empathy and collaboration and the desire to make it work.

I'm already phoning the babysitter.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

That's right.

One of the things that has come to my attention is that it is possible because her husband has reminded her that he works for the family, that his work is working for the family.

And she acknowledges that perhaps he does not feel appreciated by her.

You know, perhaps she doesn't affirm him.

And it's very clear to me that she wants quality time with him and that she wants meaningful conversation.

And it harkens back.

And I know I've listened to some of your podcasts, Andrew, where you find the ideas in the book, The Five Love Languages, to be helpful.

And it's an integral part of my work with couples.

Because, and I don't know if we need to do like a sort of a very fast review.

Let's do what the five love languages are.

Okay.

To people who are not familiar, and these days when I work with couples, at least here in the States, I'm always happy to find someone who's not familiar, but most people are, that everybody has different ways of feeling loved.

And what we tend to do is we show love in the way we like to feel loved.

But because everybody's different, we may be showing love in our love language, which actually falls upon deaf ears because it's not our partner's love language.

I would have no trouble guessing that you're also somebody who likes words and says things like, I love you.

So am I.

And for my partner, actions speak louder than words.

And I'm terrible at actions, but I do make an effort to

I hear you.

I hear you.

Well, so the five love languages.

The first one is words of affirmation.

And by the way, I think there's a subset in there, and you just identified it, Andrew, which is words of affirmation.

This is a person who feels loved when you tell them what you appreciate about them, what they do for the relationship, what they do for the family, what they do in the world.

You say good things about them.

But the subset is words.

Meaningful conversation.

I think there are a lot of people, that's their feeling of intimacy is to have those kinds of conversation.

Another love language is touch.

These are people who, and I think about this actually in three different ways.

Some people feel love through sex.

Some people feel love through affectionate touch, and some people feel love through a combination of the two.

And if you're married to this person, you can give them words of affirmation until the cows come home.

It'll be nice.

It's not going to hit the mark, like initiating sex or like grabbing...

Your partner's hand as you walk down the street are putting an arm around their shoulder.

That's their love language.

Another one is quality time.

These are people who, when we're all incredibly busy, but if you take out time from your schedule to spend quality time with this person, they will feel really, really important and very loved by you.

And by quality time, we all spend too much time on our electronics and

It's not just being in a room with somebody because people say, oh, I spend all day with my spouse.

They're just under the same roof.

But feeling someone's presence because you're doing something together that really feels rewarding.

And then acts of service, and I think that's what you were talking about, actions.

These are people who feel loved when I think of this two ways.

The big things that we all need to do to make life work, supporting a family, doing housework, taking care of kids, paying bills, mowing the lawn.

But it's also the small, thoughtful things that people do, bringing your spouse a cup of coffee,

cold in Colorado.

My husband goes out and heats up the car before I get into the car.

Isn't that sweet?

So those thoughtful things are acts of service.

And then finally, material gifts.

And it is what you might think it to be.

This is a person who, if you really give thought to buying something or making something on those important dates that

That makes that person's heart soar.

And I actually ask couples to think if they can come up with other love languages that they can add to it.

And often people come up with their own ones.

And that's always very interesting.

That's great.

And by the way, one of the most common things people have said in regards to that in my practice, because that's a great question, is I feel loved when my partner is okay with me taking time for myself and not giving me a hard time about it.

Oh, that's an interesting one.

Yes.

Okay, so back to this woman who wrote this letter.

I think it's clear that she wants quality time and probably meaningful conversation based on what she said.

It's also clear to me that he probably wants some words of affirmation because he's reminding her about what he does for the family.

But I wonder, can't help but wonder, as the person who wrote those sex books, if in fact, and she doesn't mention it at all,

He's longing for more physical closeness because the most typical thing that I see in men, when women don't get how important that might be to their husbands, men shut down.

They go into their men caves.

You know, they spend longer hours at work when they feel rejected.

They go out with their buddies.

They stop talking.

They shut down.

They don't ask their wives, how was your day?

What's on your mind?

What are you thinking?

What are you feeling?

They don't initiate quality time together because ultimately, here's how that love language thing works.

When my love tank is empty, I'm not going to fill up your love tank.

And so rather, well, she can start by writing that letter, being more positive in how she approaches him.

But if that doesn't work... Well, I've got a suggestion of what to put in the letter.

I've told you about what I would like to have differently.

And I'd really love to hear from you what you'd like to be different in the next stage of our marriage.

That's great too.

That gives him a chance to say what it is that he wants.

You're absolutely right.

I think that would be a great question.

And if the letter thing doesn't work, I think it might be time for her to think about, and it goes along with what you're asking truly, Andrew, is, is it possible that she's not expressing love to him in the way that he can receive it?

And is it possible that touch may be one of those issues?

And she needs to give some thought to that.

Brilliant.

Thank you very much for that.

We're beginning to get towards the end of the program.

So I need to ask you as a witness on The Meaningful Life, what makes your life meaningful?

Well, you know, and I know these things are trite and I know you've heard them before, but they are meaningful to me.

And so here I go.

There are three things.

The first, of course, and not in the order of importance, is

is my work.

I feel like I'm one of those people who's truly blessed to be able to do what I'm so passionate about doing, which is helping couples make their relationships work and keep their marriages together.

Having had so much success in doing that and

You know, I often feel so lucky in terms of the opportunities that I've had to write books and do public speaking and be part of, especially being part of a group called the Solution Focus Brief Therapy Group in Milwaukee, where I was part of a team that developed a model that was

very different than more traditional ways of working with people and very positive and focusing on people's strengths.

And I've just met wonderful people along the way.

And I felt really, really blessed about that.

Secondly, friends, as you mentioned before, do I have girlfriends?

I don't know what I would do without my girlfriends.

We huddle during hard times and we laugh during the good times and

And there's no end to the joy that I derive from being with them.

And my husband's always very supportive of, go, Michelle, go be with your friends.

So it works out great.

And then really and truly most importantly is my family.

I have two adult kids, and they have families, and I've got five grandkids.

And I feel like I won the lottery because –

Our family was raised in Illinois, which is quite a distance from where I live now in Colorado.

And we all now live within about 15 or 20 minutes of each other.

And I can think of no greater compliment in my life, despite the accomplishments that I've had in my work, the fact that my kids want to be around me.

So that really gives my life a tremendous meaning.

And do you still work as hard as ever?

Because I've done the maths and your past retirement age.

Am I dead?

Well, I have made some changes in what I do.

I still work really hard doing two-day intensives with couples literally all over the world.

Recently have done one with a couple in New Zealand.

And those are two-day intensives.

And I do follow up.

And I spend a lot of time doing it.

And I have some other projects that I'm doing as well.

But what I have...

Eliminated is all the travel that I used to do to do public speaking.

I'm being more of a homebody and I'm really enjoying that.

Interesting to hear that because I'm coming up to retirement age and thinking, how do you get the balance right between continuing to work and just completely and utterly exhausting yourself?

So interesting to hear what you have to say.

Just do what you most love to do and don't do those other things.

So this is where the conversation ends for most people.

But if you're a supporter of The Meaningful Life, and I'll tell you in a moment how to become one, we're going to continue on the topic which we've sort of already started, which is how to get through to the man you love without nagging.

And if you'd like to hear the bonus material, you can subscribe directly via Apple or Spotify.

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